I recently purchased a 4-floor, 100 year old row house in DC.  
Floor 1 is the basement that has a in-law rental unit.  Floor 2
is the main floor and has living room, dining room, kitchen,
garage.  Floor 3 has bedrooms & bathroom, Floor 4 is the master
bedroom suite (bed, bath, sunroom).  I am in the process of
developing a 3 year floor-by-floor improvement program.  I will
do NOTHING with floor 1, the basement since it was recently
refinished.  I will do floor 2 and 3 now.  In 03 I will do the
kitchen.  In 04 I will do the master bedroom floor.

I have a 125AMP main panel in my basement that serves a 100 year
old electrical Frankenstein.  It has been upgraded over the
years - but in a very haphazard way. It needs upgraded to a
200AMP panel to better accomodate the existing electrical demand
and to service my planned electrical improvements.

I want to coordinate my core electrical improvements to
facilitate this 3-year timed effort.  Obviously as I move up in
floors I DO NOT want to tear up what I have just completed.  
When I'm done I can see having a 200A panel on the main floor, a
subpanel in the basement feeding the in-law unit, a subpanel in
the garage and a subpanel on floor 4 feeding the master suite
and AC units.

Question 1:  Can I have a main panel with three sub panels?

Question 2:  Given my 3 year timeline, will the following work:

1)  I would like to locate the new 200AMP panel on the MAIN
floor of my house fed by a TEMPORARY feed from the existing sub
panel.  (approx 45 feet from the existing panel/external
meter).  

2)  Install a xAMP sub panel on floor 4 and run feed from the
200A panel for FUTURE USE.  THIS WILL NOT BE CONNECTED UNTIL
YEAR 3.  But I can tear up/patch the place up and have the wire
pulled and panel set so that it is ready and waiting for me.  I
want to avoid having to pull multiple circuits down through 2
completely refinished floors in 04 when I get to floor 4.

3)  In 02, migrate my first and second floor lighting and
electrical outlets to the new 200A panel.  

4)  In 03 - AKA kitchen time - I would run all kitchen circuits
and the existing garage panel to the 200A panel.  At this time
the old 125A panel in the basement would become a sub-panel to
the 200A panel.  

5)  In 04 I will polish of the master bedroom suite and run all
my floor 4 electrical to installed but previously unconnected
sub panel.  I will also run my roof condensing units from this
subpanel.  

Does this sound reasonable AND possible under code given a three-
year game plan?  The only other option is to do the entire house
at once - and I simply do not want to do this since I want to
pay for every nickel of improvements as I go.  

Thoughts/comments would be much appreciated!!

This first contact with your future plans, I plan to provide my
thoughts as you said the original post. The orginization will not
be laid out as I would perform the job you plan. I will give you
an option as how I would plan out the total job at the end in a
commentary. Try to digest this reply. Consider what I have said.
Then come back in with any differences of opinions that would not
be compatible with your pocket book and construction needs. We
can then work on fine tuning your thoughts with my thoughts and
possibly others may jump in to add a thought or two also. Kind of
like chipping this monster job down to a more piece be piece
project that we can handle better yet holding a master plan in
mind. Read my replies then tell me what you think;

YOU SAID;
:I recently purchased a 4-floor, 100 year old row house in DC.  
Floor 1 is the basement that has a in-law rental unit.  Floor 2
is the main floor and has living room, dining room, kitchen,
garage.  Floor 3 has bedrooms & bathroom, Floor 4 is the master
bedroom suite (bed, bath, sunroom).  I am in the process of
developing a 3 year floor-by-floor improvement program.  I will
do NOTHING with floor 1, the basement since it was recently
refinished.  I will do floor 2 and 3 now.  In 03 I will do the
kitchen.  In 04 I will do the master bedroom floor.

REPLY;
I suspect you can do what you plan but below you should find some
words of thought that may make a few changes in your plan that
should save you some money, time, and work redoing.

YOU SAID;
I have a 125AMP main panel in my basement that serves a 100 year
old electrical Frankenstein.  It has been upgraded over the
years - but in a very haphazard way. It needs upgraded to a
200AMP panel to better accomodate the existing electrical demand
and to service my planned electrical improvements.

REPLY;
How did you come up with a 200 amp service as the size panel you
should use. Did you guess or did you perform a demand load
calculation to find the minimum service size that you must
install and then adjust to a larger than minimum service size
making that new service planned to be installed to have room for
future and present loads?
If you will hit the "home wiring home page" at the top of this
page you should find a format called "Calculating demand load",
this should help you to calculate your minimum service size
including you finished product of your home using the load data
of all electrical equipment relying on that new service. I
suspect you will be surprised that 200 amps won't meet minimum
size requirements of the NEC. Just guessing using past experience.

YOU SAID;
I want to coordinate my core electrical improvements to
facilitate this 3-year timed effort.  Obviously as I move up in
floors I DO NOT want to tear up what I have just completed.  
When I'm done I can see having a 200A panel on the main floor, a
subpanel in the basement feeding the in-law unit, a subpanel in
the garage and a subpanel on floor 4 feeding the master suite
and AC units.

REPLY;
In my opinion, if you want to coordinate your electrical
improvements to facilitate this 3 year timed effort. I would firt
make a master plan, then I would contact the Utility Company to
confirm that they are compatible with your plans and you are
compatible with any surprise construction costs, time frames,
inspection approval requirements, local rules required by them
that your Utility Company may apply. Then I would contact you
local Electrical Inspector seeking any electrical licensing
requirments, local electrical rules that vary or exceed the NEC
requirements, and any other time frames, inspections
requirements, or anything else he or she may surprise you with. I
would also confirm that your planning and zoning authority is
compatible with your plans and also your existing rental or
mother in law quarters. Many areas forbid this second dwelling on
one property whether attached or detached. I would also check
with my insurance company to confirm my activities does not void
my home owners insurance policy during this construction project.
I would nail down the above before I did any construction, or
mechanical work on that home.
Then if all the above mentioned is in good order, the first thing
in my mind you should do is know the minimum size service
required serving that dwelling once all loads and remodeling have
been done. Then I would install a panel at least 25% larger than
the minimum service size allowed or even bigger. Before I did any
remodeling I would firm down my service design this is the first
step that should be done being the basis of all electrical work.
If you don't upgrade that service first it would be kind of like
installing the body and engine to a car before you make the frame
to hold it all together. Kind of like the buying the cart yet you
don't have a horse yet.
In my opinion the only logical location that a sub panel should
be installed would be in the second living quarters. The rest of
the home should be installed using the main panel installed on
the first floor. You don't have any concentrated loads like a
factory would have needing other sub panels. Planning ahead
should provide you with chase avenues to not only allow branch
circuit feeders to be installed as you rebuild the home without
having to damage existing or newly installed work, but also allow
you future avenues throughout the home for future installations.

YOU SAID;
Question 1:  Can I have a main panel with three sub panels?

REPLY;
Yes, but I wouldn't design any sub panels in the home you
discribed, you shouldn't need any sub panels except in the second
dwelling. In my opinion you would be spending money better spent
elsewhere.

YOU SAID;
Question 2:  Given my 3 year timeline, will the following work:
1)  I would like to locate the new 200AMP panel on the MAIN
floor of my house fed by a TEMPORARY feed from the existing sub
panel.  (approx 45 feet from the existing panel/external
meter).  
2)  Install a xAMP sub panel on floor 4 and run feed from the
200A panel for FUTURE USE.  THIS WILL NOT BE CONNECTED UNTIL
YEAR 3.  But I can tear up/patch the place up and have the wire
pulled and panel set so that it is ready and waiting for me.  I
want to avoid having to pull multiple circuits down through 2
completely refinished floors in 04 when I get to floor 4.
3)  In 02, migrate my first and second floor lighting and
electrical outlets to the new 200A panel.  
4)  In 03 - AKA kitchen time - I would run all kitchen circuits
and the existing garage panel to the 200A panel.  At this time
the old 125A panel in the basement would become a sub-panel to
the 200A panel.  
5)  In 04 I will polish of the master bedroom suite and run all
my floor 4 electrical to installed but previously unconnected
sub panel.  I will also run my roof condensing units from this
subpanel.  
Does this sound reasonable AND possible under code given a three-
year game plan?  The only other option is to do the entire house
at once - and I simply do not want to do this since I want to
pay for every nickel of improvements as I go.  
Thoughts/comments would be much appreciated!!

REPLY;

After reading your plan, I have some concerns for your time line
concerning new versus old work, try

Hi Shane.  well at least you are considering having a plan, which
is more than much of the general population would do. First off,
you need to do a little cacluating, as Warren had said. I would
say that lack of this is the root of many problems, people
overwiring, or undersupplying etc.
:

:
I want to coordinate my core electrical improvements to
:
facilitate this 3-year timed effort.  Obviously as I move up in
:
floors I DO NOT want to tear up what I have just completed.  
:
When I'm done I can see having a 200A panel on the main floor, a
:
subpanel in the basement feeding the in-law unit, a subpanel in
:
the garage and a subpanel on floor 4 feeding the master suite
:
and AC units.
:

:
Question 1:  Can I have a main panel with three sub panels?


Actually, there is nothing to say you could not have a six
subpanels, the entire scenario would be predicated on the demand
load calc. The only problem is that your main panel may only
accept so much amperage per 'stab' or 'position'. I try to
install so as to not have two heavy loads opposite each other.
You may find that 100A breakers are the highest you can fit, and
that nothing, or very minimal breakers , can fit opposite these.
:

:
Question 2:  Given my 3 year timeline, will the following work:
:

:
1)  I would like to locate the new 200AMP panel on the MAIN
:
floor of my house fed by a TEMPORARY feed from the existing sub
:
panel.  (approx 45 feet from the existing panel/external
:
meter).  

:

:
2)  Install a xAMP sub panel on floor 4 and run feed from the
:
200A panel for FUTURE USE.  THIS WILL NOT BE CONNECTED UNTIL
:
YEAR 3.  But I can tear up/patch the place up and have the wire
:
pulled and panel set so that it is ready and waiting for me.  I
:
want to avoid having to pull multiple circuits down through 2
:
completely refinished floors in 04 when I get to floor 4.
:

:
3)  In 02, migrate my first and second floor lighting and
:
electrical outlets to the new 200A panel.  
:

:
4)  In 03 - AKA kitchen time - I would run all kitchen circuits
:
and the existing garage panel to the 200A panel.  At this time
:
the old 125A panel in the basement would become a sub-panel to
:
the 200A panel.  
:

:
5)  In 04 I will polish of the master bedroom suite and run all
:
my floor 4 electrical to installed but previously unconnected
:
sub panel.  I will also run my roof condensing units from this
:
subpanel.  
:

:
Does this sound reasonable AND possible under code given a three-
:
year game plan?  The only other option is to do the entire house
:
at once - and I simply do not want to do this since I want to
:
pay for every nickel of improvements as I go.  
:

:
Thoughts/comments would be much appreciated!!
:

:Shane, if you have , or can somehow come about, an electrical
diagram of these electrical needs you may come to terms with the
amount of circuitry actually needed.  If so, it is a possibility
that all these circuits could be run in advance? They could be
marked and left with sufficient slack, and then some, to be able
to reach their first point. I have done these types of installs
either way, i.e.- subpanel, or run circuits in advance, it seems
to depend on the specifics i can gather. ( don't forget your low
voltage, ph, cable, t-state home runs)

Thanks Fellas.

Ok.  Let's get target and clean up a specific area:   LOAD
CALCS.  

Yes, I have done a load calc that includes what I have today -
plus what I foresee adding into this beast as I move along.  

My calc comes up to 36,162VA or 150.67 AMPS.  Therefore a 200 AMP panel looks good and will provide sufficient room for expansion.  

My initial reaction was that this sounded low given the size of
my house and everything I have going on in it.  However
considering I have hot water heat via radiators, gas hot water,
and gas cooking in both kitchens (main house and in-law) it
appears reasonable.  At the end of the day the real power hog is
the 5Ton Central AC unit on the roof.  I have even factored into
the calculation a future 1.5 TON second AC zone for Floor 4 AND a
possible 3rd laundry center on my second floor consisting of the
ASKO stackable washer/dryer combos that fit into a nice cabinet
or under a countertop.  All of this and I am still only at
150.67AMPS.  

Q1:Assuming my calc is correct do you agree w/ a 200AMP panel?

Q2:  I am getting very (very) elaborate with lighting.  I am
using 3" Eurofase low voltage (12V, 50watt) fixtures.  I will
have Approx. 40 on the main floor alone spread over 14
switch/dimming scenarios - ranging from 1/switch to a max of
8/switch.  Do I need to make special consideration for this in
the load calculation?   Even if I had all Floor 2 40ea going at
once (almost never)I'm pulling 2000 watts (8.33AMPS).  Overkill?  
Absolutely - but it will look GREAT and give me the WOW factor
I'm hunting for.  I will have approx 10 ea on Floor 3 and 10 ea
on Floor 4.  I'm using "approx" because I may have to make a few
+/- modifications depending on precisely where my ceiling joists
are so I can obtain a high level of symetry in my placement.  If
I had all 60 lights on at one time (completely impossible) I'd be
pulling 3000 watts or 12.5AMPS.  Based on my outside dimensions
of 3,968 (for all 4 floors) x 3VA I will have 11,904VA - it looks
like I'm covered here for my elaborate lighting.  Do you agree?

Q3:  Do I have to make any special wiring consideration for the
transformer in the low voltage fixture I am using?  The fixtures
have 12V/50W magnetic transformers attached and use a MR16 bulb.

Q4 CONCLUSION:  Assuming my facts are correct and based on my
calculations a 200AMP appears reasonable and appropriate for this
project.  Do you agree?

FINALLY - I have detailed electrical floorplans and individual
circuits mapped out on paper and a complete materials list down
to model numbers and colors.  This includes all electrical and
low voltage needs.  

Thanks Fellas.

Reply:
Glad to be of help not only you but to others that may read this
discussion and possibly pick up some ideas.

:
Ok.  Let's get target and clean up a specific area:   LOAD
CALCS.  
Yes, I have done a load calc that includes what I have today -
plus what I foresee adding into this beast as I move along.  
My calc comes up to 36,162VA or 150.67 AMPS.  Therefore a 200 AMP
panel looks good and will provide sufficient room for expansion.  
My initial reaction was that this sounded low given the size of
my house and everything I have going on in it.  However
considering I have hot water heat via radiators, gas hot water,
and gas cooking in both kitchens (main house and in-law) it
appears reasonable.  At the end of the day the real power hog is
the 5Ton Central AC unit on the roof.  I have even factored into
the calculation a future 1.5 TON second AC zone for Floor 4 AND a
possible 3rd laundry center on my second floor consisting of the
ASKO stackable washer/dryer combos that fit into a nice cabinet
or under a countertop.  All of this and I am still only at
150.67AMPS.  

REPLY;
Considering the information that you have provided, I came up
with about the same as you came up with in your demand load
calculation. 200 amp service seems fine with room to grow
available. Good job congrates on you calculating!


Q1:Assuming my calc is correct do you agree w/ a 200AMP panel?

REPLY;
As I said above you are looking good.

Q2:  I am getting very (very) elaborate with lighting.  I am
using 3" Eurofase low voltage (12V, 50watt) fixtures.  I will
have Approx. 40 on the main floor alone spread over 14
switch/dimming scenarios - ranging from 1/switch to a max of
8/switch.  Do I need to make special consideration for this in
the load calculation?   Even if I had all Floor 2 40ea going at
once (almost never)I'm pulling 2000 watts (8.33AMPS).  Overkill?  
Absolutely - but it will look GREAT and give me the WOW factor
I'm hunting for.  I will have approx 10 ea on Floor 3 and 10 ea
on Floor 4.  I'm using "approx" because I may have to make a few
+/- modifications depending on precisely where my ceiling joists
are so I can obtain a high level of symetry in my placement.  If
I had all 60 lights on at one time (completely impossible) I'd be
pulling 3000 watts or 12.5AMPS.  Based on my outside dimensions
of 3,968 (for all 4 floors) x 3VA I will have 11,904VA - it looks
like I'm covered here for my elaborate lighting.  Do you agree?

REPLY;
I have question as to whether you are not only near overkill but
you may be disappointed in your low voltage lighting in the
amount that you are installing. I am going to give you a couple
of links to study. Then I am going to ask you to find some of
these lights in your area that have been installed and operating
to see the output of actual room area lighting that you are
wanting. My concern is that these low voltage lights are normally
used for a specific area lighting method such as counter top
areas only. Seldom room area lighting is designed as I am taking
up that you are attempting. I know that area lighting may be done
yet we have some concerns to discuss as to how many you actually
need as area lighting in a room. I suspect as much as double what
you are thinking to provide the lighting output for area lighting
that I suspect you are wanting. When you design this low voltage
lighting for area rooms you should consider transformer maximum
output as to how many lights that you can put on one transformer
considering this transformer's maximum output. Then you must
consider you are using low voltage providing power to your light
modules limiting how far you can run this low voltage and still
provide required voltage due to voltage drop considerations.
There is more details needed to be discussed but the above should
get you thinking and researching. Check out the links below
showing accent lighting only being used in the opening pictures
of these site links then look how dark it is considering the area
around those accent lights. Then go to some nightclubs and
resteraunts in your area looking at the area lighting output of
the low voltage accent lighting they have operating. This should
give you a better feel as to your lighting designs. You also have
an option of using fiber optic lighting that does not rely on
distance or voltage drop considerations, yet may provide the same
output as a low voltage lighting as you originally are thinking
of. Fiber optic is the use of a thick monofiliment line that
looks at a single bright light bulb and tansmits that light to a
lighting module that the output that refracts and multiplies that
lighting output and can even focus a central beam of light or an
area light. Just do some research. I have had serveral customers
over the years that had this type of idea, yet when they saw the
finished product in their home they then said I was right and
paid to have normal lighting added in many areas to meet their
lighting output needs. Study, experience, then decide. A good
start as I said would be resteraunts, bars, and other business or
homes that have these already installed so that you can
experience the affect compared to your desires. Also look at the
links below for more ideas along the line you are suggesting
maybe shedding more knowledge and ideas for your planning
considerations.

http://www.fiberstars.com

http://www.lumenyte.com

http://www.smarthomeusa.com


Q3:  Do I have to make any special wiring consideration for the
transformer in the low voltage fixture I am using?  The fixtures
have 12V/50W magnetic transformers attached and use a MR16 bulb.

REPLY;
I suspect you will need more low voltage lighting than you
originally think. Also you must consider that these transformers
must be accessible, not installed in a box but where they can
cool, yet hidden from view, and considering voltage drop factors
dictating close proximity of that transformer to the lighting
loads they supply. Also make special planning considering your
switching. Most often the transformers are supplied 120 volts
from switches having a receptacle at the transformer where the
transformer plugs in and that receptacle is controlled by 120
volt switches. Dimming controls are commonly done on the 120 volt
supply controlling the power for dimming to the receptacle on the
primary side of these transformers. Often times you can connect
several transformers on one switch controlled lighting circuit
considering the low amperage load used by each transformer. You
need to confirm with the manufacturer's instructions, but I
suspect your dimming will be advised by the manufacturer to be
120 volt dimmers such as normal dimmers used with normal
switches. Now also considering your type of existing structure
you may want to consider using smart switches where you can
install a smart switch in 8 or more locations assigned to the
same frequency then these smart switches are connected only to
the nearest receptacle to get its power. No wiring needs to go
directly to the switch controlled light fixtures. The RF signal
runs on the house wirin

I understand your concerning on the lighting layout.  I'm
covered.  My uncle is an designer/builder and has been installing
lighting like this in his homes for well over 25 years.  He and
his lighting consultant placed all the lighting for me.  The
trick is in the fixture used.  I always tell my friends to NOT go
to Home Depot and but the gallon coffee can recessed fixtures.  
They are cheap – but they are very unattractive, have very
limited trim options and are typically way out of scale and
inappropriate for most rooms.  I use 3” housings & gimble ring
trims that disappear into the ceiling and can be adjusted up to
40 degrees to highlight art, furniture, etc.  The only thing the
eye sees is the light.  

I’m less concerned with general lighting than I am with art, mood
and scene lighting in casual living areas.  A room transforms
when you have several fixtures strategically located on varying
dimmer levels.  It is by no means common - but I don't want a
common house!  (It really isn’t that much more expensive.  My
recessed fixtures, trims and bulbs will run me about $2K – I buy
wholesale).  A high quality chandelier over my dining room table
can easily run that alone.  

I have researched fiber optic lighting.  I am contemplating on
using it in my cove lighting in my dining room.  The price has
come down over recent years but it still intimidates some
electricians.  Fiber Optic spots put off a brilliant white light
without the heat and with the added benefit of a single light
source.  The color wheel option can also be festive for parties,
etc.  However – these are not cheap and REALLY intimidate
electricians.  I’ll wait on fiber until my next house – but I am
anxious to use it.  

Back to the fixture transformer issue.

Rather than have a single transformer for light groupings I have
elected the recessed housing that has the transformer already
installed as a single unit.  My only concern that I have – having
not used it before – is a fear of transformer humming.  I am told
by my wholesaler that this is a thing of the past and advances in
technology have cured this. . .I guess I’ll find out!

Dimmers
This is an area giving me consternation.  I was hoping that
higher-end dimmers (like Grafik Eye and Radio RA wireless) have
come down in price so I can skip the Maestro dimmers I have used
in the past.  Grafik Eye in particular has a sleek modern look.  
These higher end dimmers are still insanely priced – anywhere
from $250 to $1,000.  This is crazy.  I’ll stick to the Maestro
that still hovers around $60-$80 ea for a 600watt magnetic
dimmer - depending in on supplier.

I will definitely check into the dimmer type you mentioned that
could run a switched outlet from my switch bank on the wall w/o
having to run the wiring.  This would be a HUGE help.  Do you
know the brand by any chance?

Glad to hear you have already done this low voltage area
lighting. You might check from time to time when someone comes in
looking for advice concerning those low voltage lighting system.

The dimmers usually associated with these smart switches is a
normal 600 watt dimmer installed between the relay and the
receptacle supplying power to the line side of the transformer on
the 120 volt line going to the receptacle.

There may be a reostat style relay controlled by the smart
switches using their assigned frequency. I believe that Leviton
has smart switches and possibly Eagle.

Hope this helps

Wg

Ok - now that we have load calculation sorted and we agree that a
200AMP panel looks to be the ticket, let's talk strategy/timing.

I would like to have the 200AMP panel installed on a very
targeted location (the target) in my dining room.  I have several
ulterior motives for this, as follows:

First - Immediately behind the target is my future new kitchen
and beyond that is the garage.  When I tear up/install my new
kitchen - my dozen or so circuits are within 10 feet of my 200AMP
panel.  Furthermore, when I tear up the floor I can run a new
feed to the garage sub panel from the 200AMP panel.  

Second - I would like to build a 3' wide x 12" deep soffit around
the perimeter of my dining room ceiling.  This hits several birds
for me with one stone, including:
(a) hiding some AC ductwork installed last fall when the built in
the SPACEPAK AC unit.
(b) once I frame the soffit I can pull wire half way across my
entire house and gain direct access to my AC distribution network
that goes literally all the way to the roof providing me with
simple wire runways!
(c) I can pull outlets to the floor immediately above it very
easily.  

Third - the panel is in my living space vs. the in-law unit
downstairs.  If a breaker trips I don't have to rock anybody's
boat to reset it.

There are two downsides.  
First, the target wall is very conspicuous.  The target space is
the location of a previous dumb-waiter used years ago which is
now used as a niche. I would like to fix this by having the wall
modified so that the panel itself sits back 1 to 1.5" recess so
that I can have a 1 to 1.5" cover built to cover the recess -
thereby making the face of the panel disappear and the only thing
I will see is a tiny outline.  My only other alternative is to
hang a painting over it.
Second the 200AMP panel will be one floor higher and approx. 45
feet from the service entrance meter.  I have plenty of space
above, below and to the side of where the panel will be located.  

First the story, now the questions:

Q1:  Based on what I have indicated is there anything that I need
to be alert for code-wide by moving this panel here?  
Q2:  Is it acceptable to recess my panel 1 to 2" and place a
panel cover over it for aesthetics?


Pardon me for jumping ahead a little - but assuming the above is
A-OK, lets talk panel migration.

I need to sort out the migration from the existing panel
infrastructure to the NEW panel.  As I mentioned previously I
want this to occur as I move floor-by-floor.  Also, it doesn't
seem reasonable to move the convoluted circuits from the existing
panel to the new panel right away.  My accountant brain says to
wait and only build carefully thoughout/planned new circuits to
the new 200A panel.  At the end of the process the only circuits
that will remain downstairs are the in-law unit circuits and
perhaps some completely miscellaneous circuits.  Over the course
of say 2/3 years all major loads will be transitioned to the new
panel.  

Here is where it gets TRICKY - and may even be impossible (?).  

To get the gears grinding - how about this scenario.  I'll need
your brain to shift the steps around into a potentially workable
solution.

A)  We go ahead and install the 200A panel.

B)  We open up a wire raceway between the existing panel/meter
and the new 200A panel and pull:

(1) the main feed for the future 200A service/meter (we don't
connect . . yet. . ).

(2) a TEMPORARY circuit to feed the 200A panel (i.e. we simply
leave the exisiting mess downstairs alone!).  I am operating
under the "garbage out, garbage in" princple here.  I already
have a mess with my existing circuits - I would like to avoid
bringing it with me right away to the new panel!!

C)  We install my dining room soffit and pull several
appropriately-sized wires to the top floor for future master
suite circuts AND two AC condensing units.  These are NOT HOOKED
UP.  They are merely ran for future use.  (I thought about it and
agree that adding a panel up here doesn't make any sense - let's
just plan ahead, pull the wires and be done w/ it).

D)  We begin migrating the main/2nd floor lighting and outlet
circuits to the 200A panel now.  This load will be reasonably
light so the interim solution should hold.

D)  Next year I gut my kitchen which triggers a couple of
simultaneous events.

(1)  We go with a full household upgrade to 200A and connect the
200A panel to the meter and make the existing panel a sub panel.
(2)  We run all new kitchen circuits to the 200A panel.
(3)  We re-run the garage sub-panel from the 200A panel.
(4)  We pull the AC condenser to the 200A panel.

This is a layman's stab.  How does this approach sound to a pro?

Regards,

Many thanks in advance.

:
:
Ok - now that we have load calculation sorted and we agree that a
:
200AMP panel looks to be the ticket, let's talk strategy/timing.

It's good that you did that, so many blow it off...
:

:
I would like to have the 200AMP panel installed on a very
:
targeted location (the target) in my dining room.  I have several
:
ulterior motives for this, as follows:
:

:
First - Immediately behind the target is my future new kitchen
:
and beyond that is the garage.  When I tear up/install my new
:
kitchen - my dozen or so circuits are within 10 feet of my 200AMP
:
panel.  Furthermore, when I tear up the floor I can run a new
:
feed to the garage sub panel from the 200AMP panel.



Ok so far, if you don't mind looking at a panel while dining....


:

:
Second - I would like to build a 3' wide x 12" deep soffit around
:
the perimeter of my dining room ceiling.  This hits several birds
:
for me with one stone, including:
:
(a) hiding some AC ductwork installed last fall when the built in
:
the SPACEPAK AC unit.
:
(b) once I frame the soffit I can pull wire half way across my
:
entire house and gain direct access to my AC distribution network
:
that goes literally all the way to the roof providing me with
:
simple wire runways!
:
(c) I can pull outlets to the floor immediately above it very
:
easily.  


Ok, but make sure the wiring and duct never meet and/or rub
together due to vibration, U should bond it
:

:
Third - the panel is in my living space vs. the in-law unit
:
downstairs.  If a breaker trips I don't have to rock anybody's
:
boat to reset it.


Well what if your gone?, you'll need a watchdog/ keyholder
:

:
There are two downsides.  
:
First, the target wall is very conspicuous.  The target space is
:
the location of a previous dumb-waiter used years ago which is
:
now used as a niche. I would like to fix this by having the wall
:
modified so that the panel itself sits back 1 to 1.5" recess so
:
that I can have a 1 to 1.5" cover built to cover the recess -
:
thereby making the face of the panel disappear and the only thing
:
I will see is a tiny outline.  My only other alternative is to
:
hang a painting over it.

There is a 'working space' rule that applies here, the painting
makes me chuckle, been there , spent hours trying to find that
sucker...


:
Second the 200AMP panel will be one floor higher and approx. 45
:
feet from the service entrance meter.  I have plenty of space
:
above, below and to the side of where the panel will be located.


A Q--is there any future access to said panel? U might want to
incorporate a pvc pipe.....
:

:
First the story, now the questions:
:

:
Q1:  Based on what I have indicated is there anything that I need
:
to be alert for code-wide by moving this panel here?

just working space & future access ( the later not required, but
nice to consider)
:
Q2:  Is it acceptable to recess my panel 1 to 2" and place a
:
panel cover over it for aesthetics?

This is a 110-26 deal (NEC) , you'll need 30" across ( 110-26(a)
(2) for starters
:

:

:
Pardon me for jumping ahead a little - but assuming the above is
:
A-OK, lets talk panel migration.
:

:
I need to sort out the migration from the existing panel
:
infrastructure to the NEW panel.  As I mentioned previously I
:
want this to occur as I move floor-by-floor.  Also, it doesn't
:
seem reasonable to move the convoluted circuits from the existing
:
panel to the new panel right away.  My accountant brain says to
:
wait and only build carefully thoughout/planned new circuits to
:
the new 200A panel.  At the end of the process the only circuits
:
that will remain downstairs are the in-law unit circuits and
:
perhaps some completely miscellaneous circuits.  Over the course
:
of say 2/3 years all major loads will be transitioned to the new
:
panel.  
:

:
Here is where it gets TRICKY - and may even be impossible (?).  
:

:
To get the gears grinding - how about this scenario.  I'll need
:
your brain to shift the steps around into a potentially workable
:
solution.
:

:
A)  We go ahead and install the 200A panel.

OK.....
:

:
B)  We open up a wire raceway between the existing panel/meter
:
and the new 200A panel and pull:


You mean access, not pipe right???
:

:
(1) the main feed for the future 200A service/meter (we don't
:
connect . . yet. . ).
:

:
(2) a TEMPORARY circuit to feed the 200A panel (i.e. we simply
:
leave the exisiting mess downstairs alone!).  I am operating
:
under the "garbage out, garbage in" princple here.  I already
:
have a mess with my existing circuits - I would like to avoid
:
bringing it with me right away to the new panel!!
:

:
C)  We install my dining room soffit and pull several
:
appropriately-sized wires to the top floor for future master
:
suite circuts AND two AC condensing units.  These are NOT HOOKED
:
UP.  They are merely ran for future use.  (I thought about it and
:
agree that adding a panel up here doesn't make any sense - let's
:
just plan ahead, pull the wires and be done w/ it).
:

:
D)  We begin migrating the main/2nd floor lighting and outlet
:
circuits to the 200A panel now.  This load will be reasonably
:
light so the interim solution should hold.
:

:
D)  Next year I gut my kitchen which triggers a couple of
:
simultaneous events.
:

:
(1)  We go with a full household upgrade to 200A and connect the
:
200A panel to the meter and make the existing panel a sub panel.

Actually, you will reqire a meter/ main combo, and the 'main
feeder' will feed your 200A ( they are all subpanels)
:
(2)  We run all new kitchen circuits to the 200A panel.
:
(3)  We re-run the garage sub-panel from the 200A panel.
:
(4)  We pull the AC condenser to the 200A panel.
:

:
This is a layman's stab.  How does this approach sound to a pro?

Ok, I would run all N & G's to seperate bars , then pull the
cross tie ( as in a siemens panel) to isolate the N&G's at the
correct point & time
:

YOU SAID;
Ok - now that we have load calculation sorted and we agree that a
200AMP panel looks to be the ticket, let's talk strategy/timing.
I would like to have the 200AMP panel installed on a very
targeted location (the target) in my dining room.  I have several
ulterior motives for this, as follows:
First - Immediately behind the target is my future new kitchen
and beyond that is the garage.  When I tear up/install my new
kitchen - my dozen or so circuits are within 10 feet of my 200AMP
panel.  Furthermore, when I tear up the floor I can run a new
feed to the garage sub panel from the 200AMP panel.  
Second - I would like to build a 3' wide x 12" deep soffit around
the perimeter of my dining room ceiling.  This hits several birds
for me with one stone, including:
(a) hiding some AC ductwork installed last fall when the built in
the SPACEPAK AC unit.
(b) once I frame the soffit I can pull wire half way across my
entire house and gain direct access to my AC distribution network
that goes literally all the way to the roof providing me with
simple wire runways!
(c) I can pull outlets to the floor immediately above it very
easily.  
Third - the panel is in my living space vs. the in-law unit
downstairs.  If a breaker trips I don't have to rock anybody's
boat to reset it.
There are two downsides.  
First, the target wall is very conspicuous.  The target space is
the location of a previous dumb-waiter used years ago which is
now used as a niche. I would like to fix this by having the wall
modified so that the panel itself sits back 1 to 1.5" recess so
that I can have a 1 to 1.5" cover built to cover the recess -
thereby making the face of the panel disappear and the only thing
I will see is a tiny outline.  My only other alternative is to
hang a painting over it.
Second the 200AMP panel will be one floor higher and approx. 45
feet from the service entrance meter.  I have plenty of space
above, below and to the side of where the panel will be located.  
First the story, now the questions:
Q1:  Based on what I have indicated is there anything that I need
to be alert for code-wide by moving this panel here?  
Q2:  Is it acceptable to recess my panel 1 to 2" and place a
panel cover over it for aesthetics?

REPLY;
Your panels are required to have a 30" dedicated space wide on
the wall where the panel is mounted. This recessing should not be
a problem as long as your electrical inspector has no problem
with recessing the panel, he is the final AHJ. The panel also
must have a minimum of 36" clear approach from ceiling to floor
with an exception for existing homes allowing a minimum of 30"
clear approach from ceiling to floor. Furniture would not be an
obstruction however a permenently mounted counter space or
equipment not associated to that electrical panel would be a
violation.
The NEC also says that the first overcurrent device, usually
being the main breaker, must be located either outside or inside
at the nearest point of entrance to the structure. Crawl spaces
and attic and between floor and ceiling spaces would be
considered as inside the structure. In my jurisdiction I allow a
feeder to enter the structure a maximum of 3'until it has an
overcurrent device, usually the main breaker. I suspect your AHJ
will require a main service rated weatherproof disconnect on the
outside of you dwelling if you are going that far into the
structure. If so this panel in your dining room would then become
a non service rated panel [sub panel] requiring the main fused
disconnect to be mounted outside a four wire feeder [two hots
{2/0 Cu.}, neutral {1 awg Cu. two sizes smaller is usually
accepted without a neutral demand load supporting data} and
equipment grounding conductor {4 awg Cu.]. You will probably have
trouble finding a nonmetallic sheathed cable to use as this
feeder if cooper conductors are desired. These copper feeders
{usually THHN or THW or THWN is used } must be protected with
conduit. Conduit types approved for purpose may be PVC, sealtite,
ENT, EMT, Nonmetallic sealtite type 2, etc.
Type SER 4/0-4/0-1-2 is commonly used having a nonmetallic sheath
instead of the required conduit protection. Be sure to use an
antioxidation inhibitor where required concerning aluminum
conductors.
I understand that you have an attached garage on the other side
of the kitchen. If you could place your main panel in your
garage, you would be considered as close to your heavy loads in
the kitchen. You could eliminate the sub-panel you were thinking
of in the garage that I was doubting the need for anyway, and you
could place this panel on an outside wall of the attached garage
if the Utility Company agrees placement of the meterbase on that
side of the home. This would greatly reduce your wiring cost. You
could run all the feeders to all your branch circuits in the home
two or three times for the cost of just that long main service
rated feeder serving that panel in your dining room. Might be
worth your consideration as to these cost and cost saving ideas.

Also as I have mentioned before. When you start tearing up and
remodeling no matter whether it is just one commonly used room or
more in the main floor, you are going to deal with a lot of dust
and other irritations during the three year construction
activities. You could install your new panel and make it look
existing. You could run your mechanicals where you plan to build
the soffitt chases without doing any tear outs. The family would
be able to cope with some exoposed framing and some ducting,
plumbing, and electrical wires contained in a framed in chase
without wall coverings for that chase. Just thought I would
remind you the dust and other irritations your family is going to
have to cope with if you tear up too much in the living are on
the main floor until you are ready to totally attack that floor.
Hope you have an understanding wife and kids. Over the years, I
have seen many bawling, emotional, and pissed off wives ready to
torture or divorce their husband over a three year time frame of
no matter how hard she cleans the dirtier things get. Might want
to discuss this subject before you surprise them with whats ahead.

YOU SAID;
Pardon me for jumping ahead a little - but assuming the above is
A-OK, lets talk panel migration.
I need to sort out the migration from the existing panel
infrastructure to the NEW panel.  As I mentioned previously I
want this to occur as I move floor-by-floor.  Also, it doesn't
seem reasonable to move the convoluted circuits from the existing
panel to the new panel right away.  My accountant brain says to
wait and only build carefully thoughout/planned new circuits to
the new 200A panel.  At the end of the process the only circuits
that will remain downstairs are the in-law unit circuits and
perhaps some completely miscellaneous circuits.  Over the course
of say 2/3 years all major loads will be transitioned to the new
panel.  

REPLY;
I still believe your best bet is to do your panel upgrade first
this being able to handle all new circuitry in the new panel
right off the main feeders from the meter base. My thoughts were
to run one single nonmetallic service entrance cable about a #2
Aluminmum from the new panel to the old panel subfeeding the
existing sub panel from the new panel and new meter base. This
way you would not ha

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